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Monday, 12 October 2009

Logic of the Taliban supporters: Time to deconstruct some myths and arguments


Some candour, please


Saturday, May 02, 2009
By Babar Sattar

The writer is a lawyer based in Islamabad. He is a Rhodes scholar and has an LL.M from Harvard Law School

Argument 1: Pakistan is fighting an alien war

Those propagating a policy of pusillanimity and appeasement toward the Taliban make at least two flawed arguments. One, that Pakistan is fighting an alien war in FATA as a mercenary of the United States and the drone attacks and the hatred against US imperialistic agenda somehow justifies the Taliban insurgency against the state and people of Pakistan. Instead of fighting ‘our own people’ to please the US, we must negotiate with them and stand together against imperialists. Two, where there is popular local support for a political agenda, the army cannot attack such agenda or those articulating and promoting it. Thus, it is fine for the state and the army to act as a neutral arbiter when it comes to a disagreement between the Taliban and the rest of the citizens of Swat or Buner for example, and act as a facilitator to promote reconciliation between the Taliban (as the dominant local group) and the state through peace deals.

Hatred for the US

Let us address our hatred for the US first. There are two sets of truths that fuel this hatred. One, that the US has pursued a shamelessly selfish foreign policy that is bereft of principles. And two, our successive political and military elites have not had the spine to enunciate a policy that squarely focuses on promoting and protecting Pakistan’s national interest where such approach might be at odds with the US foreign agenda. Together, these truths leave the people of Pakistan indignant, and the slavish disposition of incumbent rulers toward the US shames and angers us by exposing the gulf between our self-perception as a sovereign people and our reality of being led by a self-serving elite beholden to foreign masters.

It is understandable that there is some cheering and support for anyone who takes on a bully. We saw that during the first Gulf war when many in Pakistan (and in the Muslim world more generally) rooted for Saddam Hussain and Iraq, despite the fact that Saddam’s Iraq had never been a friend to Pakistan. Similarly the Hugo Chavez ‘the-devil-was-just-here’ speech against George Bush in the UN a couple of years back attracted loud cheers from all around. But amidst this understandable opposition to US foreign policy, must we cut our nose to spite the face when it comes to the Taliban and their insurgency within Pakistan? That the Taliban have couched their domestic political agenda in anti-American terms and a majority of Pakistanis are angry with the US for its drone attacks and resentful over its foolishly apparent stick-and-carrot policy doesn’t automatically align the interests of a majority of Pakistanis with those of the Taliban.

It is indeed marvellous that even people like Imran Khan (forget Jamat-e-Islami) are oblivious to the fact that in their opposition to the US agenda they have emerged as apologists for the Taliban. We must not act against the Taliban because the US wants us to. But we must neither underplay the genuine threat posed by creeping Talibanization to democracy, civil liberties and constitutionalism in Pakistan, nor embrace the Taliban in order to spite the US. There is no need to root our national agenda in anti-Americanism. So long as we are committed to upholding and implementing the Constitution across the four corners of Pakistan, opposition to both, drone attacks and the Taliban-leashed barbarism creates no paradox.

Argument 2: The state and army must not fight its own people.

The second argument supporting inaction against the Taliban concludes that the state and the army must not fight its own people by making two subtle assumptions. One, the Taliban and those that they wish to impose their edicts over are in the middle of a political disagreement and the state and the army should not take sides. Two, the state should never use coercion or violence against its own people irrespective of their actions. Both these assumptions are misconceived. Let us remind ourselves that the Taliban are a product of Pakistan’s Afghan policy. The state created, supported and sustained madressas that propagated a brand of religious ideology that encouraged non-state actors to become agents of violence under the banner of jihad. The leaders of such madressas also had a penchant for a medieval society that shuns modernity and all things associated with the west.

The jihadi project didn’t only create mercenaries driven by religious zeal, but also imbibed them with the ancillary objective of creating a backward society once the jihad against infidels succeeds. The state cared little about such collateral effect of a deliberate state policy to recruit jihadis to promote its geo-strategic interests. Unfortunately, the more esoteric calling of the militants – of creating an obscurantist society – has now merged with the primary objective of fighting the infidels, as they see the rest of Pakistan as one big agent of the infidels. It is then farcical for the state to act as if we are witnessing a difference of agreement between different political groups in Swat, Buner, Dir and FATA that needs to be sorted out by these groups themselves. The state destroyed the level playing field between citizen groups when it transformed one group into professional merchants of violence.

To sit back and watch citizens with opposing points of view stake it out and develop a consensus in the tribal belt simply amounts to allowing the Taliban to make minced meat out of those opposed to their agenda and diktat. The state led by the army created this Frankenstein and it now shoulders the responsibility of confronting and neutralizing it. It is also incorrect that the state never uses violence against citizens. The state monopolizes the means of violence and uses it on an everyday basis against those who do not abide by the compact between the citizen and the state. We call it the penal justice system. Militant groups slaughtering fellow citizens, annexing their property and robbing them of their fundamental rights and liberties might be culpable of a higher crime against the state itself, but they are also guilty of murder, homicide, robbery, extortion etc. as defined by our justice system.

We cannot amuse and appease militant groups

As a matter of principle, we cannot appease and humour them in the name of peace and reconciliation just because enforcing the law is harder against this group of citizens in comparison to other criminals across Pakistan that are less organized and trained. Pakistan has been ambivalent about extending constitutional rights and obligations to the people of the tribal areas merely because we got comfortable with the colonial legacy and bought into the logic of not trying to fix what is not broken. Notwithstanding the past, now that the tribal belt is up in flames we have no option but to bring it within the realm of the Constitution. Would allowing Sufi Mohammad and the Taliban to run a system of governance that falls foul of our Constitutional structure and principles not amount to the state facilitating its own balkanization? If such separatism is acceptable in Swat, then why not in Balochistan and Sindh where people have been similarly disgruntled with the state?

There is urgent need to inject honesty and candour in our discourse on the Taliban. Let’s admit that the Taliban are not barbaric because the US is bad. The Taliban are barbaric because they believe in a brutish approach to life and religion. If the US was to stop drone attacks in Pakistan or even quit Afghanistan, Muslim Khan is unlikely to go back to painting houses. The Taliban must be dealt with urgently and resolutely as an existential problem that is questioning and threatening the foundational principles on which our country is founded.

Politicians must give up double speak

Further, our politicos must give up double-speak. Let the PML-N say that it fears speaking against the Taliban because who knows they might prevail tomorrow and so this centre-right party wishes to keep its options open. Let the ANP plainly state that they had ‘no option’ but to surrender their writ to the Taliban because of the dithering resolve of the army to fight armed militias in their province. And let the PPP acknowledge that in trying to second-guess what every other power broker wants from Pakistan, this mainstream liberal party has lost all ability to support a thought-process of its own.

The Pakistan Army

The Pakistan Army’s will and capability to confront the Taliban is under question because the masters of our security doctrine are confused about the future role and utility of the Taliban. The lack of capability of the army to fight a guerrilla war in the tribal areas is predominantly a consequence of lack of will to develop such a capability. Unless there is frank admission that the Afghan policy of the 1980 and 90s and the jihadi project conceived as a result was flawed and has had terrible consequences for Pakistan, the approach toward confronting Taliban will continue to be of the ineffectual fire-fighting variety that we have witnessed in Bajaur, Kohat, Swat, Dir and Buner over the last year or so. Once the army reformulates its defence doctrine wherein (i) Afghanistan is no longer a strategic hinterland but a friendly neighbour that should have a sustainable government representing the plural Afghan society, and (ii) jihadis have no further role in promoting Pakistani state’s geo-strategic interests, the need to keep options open with the Taliban will automatically subside. Only then will we begin to meaningfully address the root-causes of religious intolerance and violence in our society.

Email: sattar@post.harvard.edu (The News, 2 May 2009)

......

A cobweb of myths
Dr Tariq Rahman

NOW that a military operation is going on in the Malakand Division it is imperative that it should be supported by the people and that the IDPs should be looked after with all resources at hand and be treated with compassion and respect.

Unfortunately, we have many myths and conspiracy theories which prevent clear thinking and that need to be debunked.

Myth 1: America wants our nuclear weapons and is destabilising Pakistan through the Taliban.


This myth is dangerous because those who subscribe to it also believe that America pays the Taliban to destabilise Pakistan to create an excuse to take away our nuclear weapons. This makes it difficult for the government to fight the Taliban while accepting American aid as the whole thing seems to be a cruel hoax to ordinary Pakistanis.

The US has over 5,400 nuclear warheads and it is thousands of kilometres away from this country. Moreover, it allowed Pakistan to develop these weapons. America would not gain if Pakistan is destabilised because then Al Qaeda would be strengthened and that would threaten America.

During the 1971 war America warned India not to overrun (West) Pakistan because it was not in America’s interest to destabilise South Asia any further. In 1999 during the Kargil episode America helped Pakistan to cut its losses without further bloodshed.

During the Afghan war the US wanted to defeat the Soviet Union and paid Pakistan to do so. Pakistan helped because it needed the military aid and money (and Ziaul Haq wanted American support). And now, once again, America wants to defeat the Islamic militants because they threaten America and Pakistan needs the money. That is what the Kerry-Lugar bill is for and that is precisely why the IMF and the Friends of Pakistan consortium have lent Pakistan billions of dollars. It is not in America’s interest to destabilise Pakistanbecause if it breaks up or is Talibanised it will be a threat to America.

So, while America’s policies might not be the most productive, it makes no sense to claim that the Taliban are US agents in a conspiracy against our nuclear weapons.

Myth 2: Nothing gets done in Pakistan unless America wants it to happen.

This is a different version of the previous myth and it is not true. No country is so powerful that it can get everything done. Pakistan made friends with communist China againstAmerica’s wishes. Later, it was the US which sought American help to develop its own relations with China. Pakistan also developed nuclear weapons against American wishes. During the lawyers’ movement America was a supporter of Musharraf until he turned weak and it was no longer in America’s interest to support him.

Myth 3: The Taliban want Islam in the country but their approach is wrong.

This depends on personal interpretations of the Sharia. The Taliban want to impose their version of it. However, it is not only a matter of approach, it is also a matter of the interpretation of the Sharia. In fact the Taliban version of the Sharia would make life joyless for all and a torture for women. Secondly, the country would lose a pool of talent to other countries. Thirdly, productivity would decrease as Pakistan would be isolated.

Fourthly, science and technology, indeed all knowledge, would suffer as creative minds would be stifled in an atmosphere of fear. Fifthly, either the US or India or Iran would be so alarmed as to attack us or stop all foreign aid to us because such a regime would be a threat to their way of life and religious practices. Lastly, the Taliban is a name for disparate groups and gangs. They would fight for power, making us another Afghanistan.

Myth 4: If Nato forces withdraw from Afghanistan there will be peace.

Nato forces should withdraw from Afghanistan as a matter of principle but this will not end Talibanisation. Indeed, if Nato forces withdraw, parts of Afghanistan will be ruled by the Taliban once again. If Pakistan sides with them it will be isolated by the rest of the world. If it does not, it will have a hostile neighbour. In either case the Taliban worldview will be strengthened in Pakistan.

The groups seeking power in order to enforce Taliban-style Sharia in Pakistan will continue their attempt to succeed. This will mean that the danger to girls’ schools, women’s freedom of choice in moving around, dress code, art and music will remain under threat.

However, in addition to the principle that one does not want any country to occupy another, one would want America to withdraw since the occupation creates a backlash. So, even at the risk of strengthening the Talibanisation of the Pashto-speaking areas our government and thinkers should raise their voice for a Nato withdrawal. When this happensPakistan will find it easier to fight the Taliban because Pakistanis will stop calling it an anti-colonial war.

Myth 5: Islamic militancy is created by poverty and ignorance.

This is only partly true. The family background of Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and Abu Musaib al-Zarqawi (killed in 2006) — all leading lights of Islamic militancy — cannot be called a poverty-stricken one. Osama’s family is among the richest globally. Zawahiri comes from a distinguished Egyptian family. Zarqawi’s father was an army officer and mayor of a town in Jordan called Zarqa.

Nor is the leadership illiterate. All were educated though not in the liberal arts or the social sciences. The fact is that their ideas about using militancy to defeat what is perceived as western domination (called ‘Crusaders’ by them) and the corrupt ruling elites of the Muslim world emanate from Sayyid Qutb of the Muslim Brotherhood and Abd al-Salam Faraj of Egypt. Indeed, they go back to Taqi Uddin Ibu Taymiyya (1263-1328) who lived during the tumultuous time of the Mongol invasions.

The leadership disseminates ideas about the permanent grievances of Muslims, such asIsrael’s domination of Palestinian land, to young people who burn with a sense of outrage. Here the poverty nexus does come in since the ordinary rank and file of militant movements come from poor, unhappy, violence-prone households. They want money, respect and justice and these are promised to these deprived angry young men. They then become cannon fodder for the militants.

If we understand these and other myths and realise that we have created our own Frankensteins and not foreign countries; that most of the militants are our people and not foreigners (though some are); that foreign countries may help militants but are not powerful enough to keep them alive for ever; that we made mistakes in the past of which we are reaping the harvest — then we can still make Pakistan safe for our children. (Dawn, 14 May 2009)

......

A specimen of the Taliban apologists' reaction to the terrorist attack on GHQ:
(Source: pkpolitics; kalpoint)

Ali Q said:

First of, Kashif and others like him are doing a public service by pointing out that it is better to discuss the news rather than discuss theories. The news is: GHQ attack, extremists from southern punjab, safe house outside of islamabad, breach of security, impending war on waziristan.

Rather than indulging in inconsistent theories, look at what is reported in the NEWS (i repeat, REPORTED!) . (The theories are inconsistent, because the person presenting the theory contradicts some facet of his theory while presenting it)

Now.

The number of theories floating in this thread is beyond ridiculous. (Note, I call all of the following theories and not analysis. Because analysis, is by its very nature, something that is grounded in facts, unlike everything proposed here).

I am sure I could have counted more, but my patience gave in. So, without further ado, some wonderful gems from the responses above:

1) “The timings over here also seem perfect. First the Peshawar Blast and now the GHQ attack….that means Waziristan Operation is just about to start within few weeks!”

2)”Its really alarming situation for our security forces and our leadership should now raise the voice against INDIAN involvement in the incedents of terrorism but it would pay my my salute to the martyers of GHQ attack.”

3) tahir001 “Today everything is upside down, Taliban working for India, US working for India, Zardari government serving interests of the US and India, Baloch and Pukhtoon nationalists working for Afghans, India and the US.”

4) “Rehman Malik is behind all this Act.His new task is to launch Operation In south Waziristan from his GOD (America)and he is making peoples mind slowly watch him carefully and read his face when he speaks”

5) nawaz “Todays event at GHQ was just a pretext to justify military action in Waziratan. You need to strengthen reasons to get political support and backing from pak nationals for military operation in Wazirastan.”

6) JavedKhan “This attack is organised by Rehman Malik and Zardari…….so far even after 12 hours no news about Gen Kiyani. Or is he among the hostages. Zardari wants to trap Gen Kiyani so that he could get Kerry-Lugar Bill approved.”

Hahahaha. This one was funny.

7) nawaz “Shame on PPP Govt and american agents like MUSHRAF, Be-Rehman, Hussain Haqqani, and Zardari (many others) because of them and their policies, we are killing our nation. They are working more for USA security than securing Pakistan.”

8)mmmalik “I think it is black water.”

9)zaheer “but they are dead silence about operation against blackwater and similars which are in the capital of our country! They are planning and executing suicide and other similar attacks in disguise of Talibans etc. Taliban are stupid people, they can’t carry out such sensitive, big and complex tasks, at least not alone!”

10) Another gem, by Javedkhan “This attack is not genuine, this is fake attack organised by Rehman Malik and Zardari to get rid of Gen Kiyani. The attacks on Sri Lankain Cricket Team and Munawaan Police Academry were also carried out by Rehman Malik and Zardari.”

11) black panther “..there is still time that we understand the American/Israeli/Indian agenda and take actions on our clock instead of at the node of an American stick……..or it will be too late………..”

12) nonamipuppa “just get rid of rehman malik, sulman taseer and asif zardari . this will be end of terrorism in the country.”

13) molvirpg “As soon as the military locked horns with Zardari on Kerry Lugar they were given a clear message in the form of an attack on the GHQ that it won’t be a cake walk (A jeep and two trucks) this time.”

14)sabazbagh “People also opine that the recent weapons & bombs used in attack on GHQ, were especially supplied ONLY A FEW DAYS BACK by the ‘goras’ of U.S & Dutch embassy staff, BUT ”

15)revivalist “I hope this is not an inside job to pave a way for a full scale operation in Waziristan and make public opening for it in advance by doing such evil tactics.”

16)zaheer “Hakeem Ullah and similars are just drama, puppet and stupid people who play in the hands of people like you and your masters!”

17) Public “This terrorist activity looks like a response from AI2 block to PAK army for showing resistance against K.L. Bill.”

18) Eyrie “If USA was ever serious in Afghanistan it would have sealed the Pak-Afghan border from first day and at least stopped the flow of militants across the border. But clearly that is not what they meant in the first place. Their main objective is to destabilize Pakistan.”

To all of you:
First of all, do notice, how all of you cannot be true at the same time. Because you’d conflict with each other.

Second, you’ve been blessed with an education and the ability to think: use your five senses and observations, rather than use your imagination to come to a conclusion.

And now, I submit.

.....

Eyrie said:

@Ali Q
I want to make one thing very clear, I am not shifting any blame. I am against anyone who uses violence against innocent civilians or our security forces and they don’t deserve any leniency. I am very sorry to say but it looks like you are on verge of some sort of break down.

You mentioned analysis of facts but I didn’t see any analysis from your side but very lame attempt to taunt others for their lack of ability to analyse facts, which doesn’t bode well for you as you are content with copying and pasting comments from some members of this forum and thus coming up with a new comment.

Drone attacks is a fact not a theory. India’s consulates in neighbouring Afghanistan is a fact not theory. Innocent people getting killed in Drone attacks is a fact not theory. Indian spies who used to be imams and teachers in east Pakistan is not a theory. Tune to a TV channel and read the news of Afghan Imams being arrested in N-W.F.P.

Ali Q said

“The number of theories floating in this thread is beyond ridiculous. (Note, I call all of the following theories and not analysis. Because analysis, is by its very nature, something that is grounded in facts, unlike everything proposed here)”

I think you need some facts to counter all these theories and not just a “Qol-e-Zareen” from your highness to prove everything is bullshit.

....

Ali Q said:

@Eyrie

I would debate, Eyrie, however “I reject reality and substitute it for my own” is the stance taken by many of the people here.

Now, as for addressing your point…

If USA was ever serious in Afghanistan it would have sealed the Pak-Afghan border from first day and at least stopped the flow of militants across the border. But clearly that is not what they meant in the first place. Their main objective is to destabilize Pakistan.

If you follow the news, America doesn’t have control over all of Afghanistan. As an example, the Hemland province is a province the Americans didn’t step into until this past summer. While your demand that they the seal the pak-afghan border seems legitimate, it is impractical: NATO certainly doesn’t have a force large enough to patrol our shared border with Afghanistan. If they put all the troops on that border, who will fight the insurgency within the country?

So, more specifically, since the news doesn’t support your points: I don’t believe America is working to destabilize Pakistan. It is not. It’s just failing to stabilize Afghanistan (through inefficient strategies, slow paced reconstruction, betting too much on the corrupt karzai etc.) all of which has a knock on effect on us.

If you scan through our history and the news,
Pakistan’s militant problem is the sum of the following elements
= LARGEST contributor (more than 70%): our policy failures ( support of militancy post 1980 + proxy jihad launched against india in kashmir + slow reaction against militants post 9/11 + musharraf’s wooing of islamists in nwfp + our inability to solve balochistan + army leadership’s short-sighted policy of finding strategic depth in afghanistan through a militant force like the taliban+us not taking issue with the middle eastern countries on the funneling of Arab money that supports this insurgency+ lack of educational reform+few opportunities for the poor+many more points)
+ REASONABLY large contributor (25%): America’s policy failures (america/nato’s failed war strategies in afghanistan,
america not buying the allegiance of militant units where possible through $$$+ america not investing in the civil institutions of Pakistan+ inability to cut taliban’s drug-related source of funding+ many more points)
+ MUCH smaller contributor (5%): Elements who want to see the end of Pakistan as a state (intelligence agencies/raw?/the israelis?/all the parties to alluded by conspiracy theorists)

I refuse to speculate unlike so many of you here. I don’t think all of you are taliban lovers 99% of you are not on Taliban’s side either.

However: Your belief is if we ignore the problem (or americans ignore the taliban) the problem will go away. While that is partially true, that solution is temporary. Yes, you might not suffer today, but your children or their children will. (Just like we today are bearing the fruit of misguided policies of the military in the 80s/90s)

Letting the taliban rule as they wish in swatches within the country is like having wild animal caged up in a makeshift cage. It will eventually find it’s way out to cause havoc.

....

netengr said:

@Ali Q

Very good analysis ,I do agree with some points ,I just want to add that this is basically an “Ideology ” which is the driving force of militancy ,from afghan war ,proxy Kashimir jihad ,Elements in the army ,funding ,loyalty ,public support all of these are from an ideology and the concept ,Those who are thinking that this is just a war against USA attack are wrong .yes this could be the part of it but even witour USA this animals will grow more unless all people will go against them just like sawat

....

istherenohope said:

When will this stop? Stop blaming the west stop blaming anyone else for this mess. Stop the blame…………..STOP IT FOREVER and take responsibility.

For GOD SAKE, For the sake of anything you believe in, for your children’s sake stand up and kill these animals.Go raid the madrassas, take your children out of there and kill these mullahs with the guns and bombs they have gathered for you. It baffles my mind to see and think how can many cities and villages in Pakistan can still be safe heavens and homes for these people.

I cant imagine how people can go burn Christian homes because they burned quran supposedly and no one wants to kill these bearded animals who kill your kids and your people every day in thousands. Why sectarianism can claim lives of thousands of shias and not one mullah gets killed not one madrassa gets toppled even after these jihadis take responsibility for every bomb and every death on your streets. Where has the humanity gone, why is there so much anger about sect and religion and quran burning and no anger over this. Why do people still find justifications for these animals in form of they have been oppressed by west and they are american agents and blah blah blah.

Why is a justification or logic necessary, why do you need to understand why they are doing it. Will an answer to this question stop it???? no b/c there is no end to a madness that has no base. For God sake do not make Pakistan another version of religiously run oppressed nation.

We dont want to be Iran or saudi arab…… they are religious fanatics, not ways to God. When will people remember mullahs never wanted Pakistan, and yet once it was made they found it was so easy to make uneducated, poor masses of this nation believe in the fact that Pakistan was made to be an islamic state, no IT WAS NOT. People who didnt want it then became the hunters for prey to fulfill their ideology of twisted religion. The day they set foot here and the day people started looking up to them for answers we started digging our own grave. So yes you have foreign hand but thats not what started this mess.

This mess started in 1947 when mullahs took Pakistan hostage by claiming the rights to it b/c it was “MUSLIM” state. IS this the ISLAM you want? So next time when you try to kill another Paksitani b/c he is a christain or shia or jew or whatever please remember to count the number of jihadis, mullahs and madrassas you have destroyed b/c if that number is even 1 less than the number of your own fellow citizens you have killed or are about to kill….may be you dont really understand what the religion of peace and tolerance had stood for. I dont live there anymore, i cant imagine having my children in deaths hands every day, i cant imagine not being able to go out and not know if i will come back home but you know how does it feel like so why are you letting these animals live in your cities and communities. Blame anyone you want but start cleaning house before anything else…..PLEASE………………please dont let another single child go to these madrassas……….PLEASE STOP THE TERROR NOW!!!!!

Bottomline is that the day we all learn to be Pakistani before anything else, shia sunni, pathan, punjabi, sindhi, baloch….there will be victory. Unless we restore jinnah’s original vision for a state that was run seperately from reliogion and free for all, these elements will breed. Blaming west is easy but as a nation unless there is a educated, patriotic (not islamic) revolution, this can be beginning of the end.

I pray people of my country wake up and shed the emotional baggage of Pakistan is for ISLAM…and embrace Pakistan is for paksitani’s and we tolerate every religion….we can hope for brighter tomorrow.

.....

Zainabia said:

The Only Possible Solution to overcome this Fitna of Taliban.... Pakistan Army take Control of Area:

I always suggest that only best possible Solution to this Situation is this that Pakistan Army took control of these Mad Terrorists and take the control of Region.

But Taliban apologists still support Taliban and Anti-Pak Army by suggesting that Pak Army has nothing to do in our own Pak Land and it is not our War against Terrorism.


Pakistan created Taliban for it's Interests, like:

- Pak wanted Stable Afghanistan for Trade and Route to Central Asian Muslim Countries.

- Also Pak wanted to provide Indian Exporters a Road/Railway Route till Central Asian Countries.

- Also Oil Pipeline was an attractive option.


Nevertheless, Pakistan got not a Single Penny benefit by creating Taliban. Instead of this Pakistan suffered a HUGE Loss due to Taliban [all kind of losses including Economical Loss, Stretegic Loss, Stability loss......]

- Taliban Apologists claim creation of TAliban was Excellent while Pakistan could have Ruled over Afghanistan through Pushtoon factor of Taliban. [i.e. neo-colonizing Afghanistan as US does in Muslim Countries through non-democratic Kings]

But these Taliban Apologists are equally Jahil as Taliban and absolutely not able to view that:


- By Supporting Taliban due to them being Pushtoons and letting them Killing all other Uzbek, Tajik, Turkaman, Hazaras ethnic Groups, Pakistan made all of them enemy too.

- And Central Asian Countries, with whom we wanted to do Trade (by bringing Taliban) were themselves Uzbeks, Tajiks and Turkamanistan and Azerbaijan.

- These Central ASian Countries started hating Pakistan too.
Not only they hated Pakistan, but they also supported all factions which were fighting against Taliban by providing weapons etc to groups like Ahmad Shah Masood and General Doostam.

- US got the plan to destabilize the Muslim Ummah by starting Sectarian and Interests fight among Muslims. For surely sooner or later there would have been full Scale war between Taliban and Iran.


- And Oil Pipeline from Central Asian Countries through AFghanistan till Pakistan was only a Dream.
And America showed this Dream to us so that there could be hatred and tensions between Pakistan and Iran on Issue of Pipeline.

[Pipeline through Iran till Sea was about 325 Km long, while via Afghanistan-Pakistan it was more than 1650 km Long]

Route via Afghanistan/Pakistan was never competitional against route through Iran, and US knew it. But still US wanted that two brotherly Muslim Countries start hating each other over their Interests and US succeeded in it's Plan and there were tensions between Tehran and Islamabad.

Later US betrayed Afghanistan and Pakistan over Oil Pipeline while it was only a dream which US showed to us for achieving it's evil plans.

- Other US plan was to destablize China through Extremist Talibans.
Result: There were Tensions between Beijing and Islamabad over Taliban.

- Actually, whole rest of world looked at Pakistan with hatred while Pakistan was Supporting those wild animals, who got no place in any Civilized Society. India used this hatred very successfully against Pakistan.


So, in past Pakistan was unable to benefit a single Penny from Taliban.

Contrary to this, Pakistan suffered huge loss in every field.


And Present is even more DARKER than our Past.

...

Bawa said:

@ hasankhan
these taliboo are sick people,worst than animals,supporters of taliban are also animals and traitors.they always try to divert attention.not america not india ,only this is the work of sick taliban.

کیا اب یہ یقین کر لیا جایے کہ پاکستان کے دشمن انڈیا، امریکا یا اسرایئل نہیں ہمارے اپنے ہی مسلمان اور کلمہ گو بھائی ہیں. وہ جو پاکستان کو اسلامی ملک بنانے کے نام پر بے گناہ مسلمانوں کو قتل کر رہے ہیں، جو مساجد میں جا کر نمازیوں پر فائرنگ کرتے ہیں، جو خود اپنے ہاتھوں سے پاکستان کی جڑیں کھوکھلی کر رھے ہیں اور جن کو بہت ساری مذہبی اور سیاسی جماعتوں کی حمایت حاصل ھے

...

netengr said:

Here is Talibani Supporters' logic

Yesterday :

Yeh taliban nahi ho saktay ,Yeh India aur yahoodiyon ki sazish hay

Today :

Abb ager un per hamlay hon tou lia taliban difa bhi na karain ? jab tab operation aur USA nahi khatam hota aisay hamlay hotay rahain gay ….

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Wah ji wah Pehlay taliban ko bachao ager sabit ho jayeh tou un ko denfed kero ,Lagta hay ager taliban poray pakistaniyon ko bhi marr dalain tab bhi un kay support kernay walay un hi ko defend kerain gaay .

——

Taliban Qatil hain ,Jo un ko support ker raha hay un kay ser per bhi khoon-e-nahaq hoga .
Yaad rakho patil say kabhi Allah ki madat nahi hoti yeh shaitan ka dhoka hota hay

Qatilon ki tarafdari kaheen Qayamat main Qatilon kay saath hi khra keray gi

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netengr said:

see ,Jamaat Islami is saying the india is involved in GHQ attack .

http://jang.com.pk/jang/oct2009-daily/12-10-2009/updates/10-12-2009_8086_1.gif

1-Why Jamaat Islami did not condemn the attack as they condemn drones ?
2-It mean Government and Army is protecting india by not blaming them ?
3-Dr Usman arrested attacker was belong to the religious group ,if this is india then why he was involved in this
4-Why Taliban commander accepted this ?
5-Why Qazi hussain said yesterday that this is the reaction of USA policy . (if india is involved ,Islamist is being used then how come he justify that this attack is reaction of US policy ? )

...

netengr said:

طالبان کے حمایتی طالبان کی اس طرح حمایت کرتے ہیں جس طرح ہو ماں اپنے شریر بچے کی شرارتوں کے با وجود یہ ماننے کو تیار نہیں ہوتی کے میرے بچے نے کچھ کیا ہو

اگر شریر بچے کی ماں کا بچہ کسی اور بچے سے لڑے اور مارے اور کوئی اس کا ماں سے شکیت کرے کے تمہارا بچہ دوسرے بچوں کو مارتا ہے اور بدتمیز بھی ہے ،اس کے جواب میں اس شریر بچے کی ماں کبھی بھی نہیں مانے گی اور جواب میں یہی کہے گی کے “کچھ بھی ہو میرا بچہ ایسی حرکت کبھی نہیں کر سکتا ہے ” اگر بڑی مشکل سے مان بھی کے تو آخر میں یہ کہتی ہے کے ضرور تم نے کچھ کہا ہوگا جبھی میرے بچے نہ اس کو مارا ہوگا ورنہ میرا بچہ کبھی ایسے نہیں کرتا میرا بچہ تو اتنا شریف ہے کے بس کیا بتاؤں …..

یہ ہوتی ہے ایک لاڈلے بچے کی محبت جو ایک ماں کو ہر حالت میں اپنے بچے کو بچاتی ہے باوجود یہ مانے کے کے اس کا بچہ ہی اصل فساد ہے پر اس کی بچے سے محبت اس کو یہ نہیں ماننے دیتی ہے .

یہی حال ہمارے لاڈلے طالبان کے حمایتیوں کا ہے .

اتنا پیار تمہیں کر تے ہیں آج ہمیں معلوم ہوا

mbokhari said:
عمران کی راہ پر چلنے والو
رستہ سارا دلدل ہوگا
خودکش بمبار کافر ھیں
اور ذمہ دار دلی ، کابل ھو گا
لیکن ڈرون نہ مارو،اپنے ھیں
مذاکرات کرنا بھی مشکل ھو گا
لہزا طالبان آئیں گے
اور ملا صوفی پھر انکل ھو گا
عمران جائے گا پنجاب یونیورسٹی
گلے میں کالی پگڑی کا آنچل ھو گا
منہ پرنقلی داڑھی ھو گی
اور مست آنکھوں میں کاجل ھو گا
ڈرون حرام ھیں، بیت اللہ شہید ھے
جو نہ مانے وہ پاگل ھو گا

3 comments:

Aamir said...

'MMA was created by ISI' RECORDER REPORT [Courtesy Business Recorder 2005]

http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=198267&currPageNo=12&query=jamhoori&search=1&term=2004-10-012006-12-31&supDate=

MULTAN (February 16 2005): Farooq Maudoodi son of founder of Jamaat-i-Islami, late Abul Aala Maudoodi, has said that Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA) had been created by ISI and it is a part and parcel of the military government and cannot part ways with President Pervez Musharraf. Talking to a group of journalists here on Tuesday he said: "Qazi Hussain Ahmed met the then ISI chief, General Ehsan-ul-Haq, then called on General Pervez Musharraf and later met US ambassador, then flew to United States. As soon as he returned, MMA was formed like IJI (Islami jamhoori Ittehad)."

He said that IJI was organised by ISI and funds were also provided by it on the assurance of Qazi Hussain Ahmed, who had also played a key role in IJI. "Now he is playing major role in MMA." Bitterly criticising the MMA, Farooq said that the role of MMA is evidence of its loyalties with military regime. It had approved the 17th constitutional amendment which is in favour of the present regime.

He said: "Where has the MMA movement gone while its leadership is claiming that it would continue till the achievement of objective of 'Uniform'?" Farooq said that Benazir knew very well about MMA and she had some reservations about it. He said that ISI has complete record of MMA leaders and they cannot escape. He said that politics ended in 1958 when Ayub imposed martial law. He said that plundering of evacuee trust property (Auqaf) and politics of clerics destroyed the politics of the country.

Regarding deletion of column of 'religion' from Passport, he said that it was a good step and Ulema should have welcomed it but they made it part of their agitation to hoodwink the innocent Muslims. Farooq said that some bad things were added in the constitution by Zia-ul-Haq, which must be excluded, which had bred many ills.

Aamir said...

Imran Khan hailed PCOed Judiciary!

http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/08/imran-khan-hailed-pcoed-judiciary.html

Pakistan Tehrik-i-Insaaf chief Imran Khan has hailed the SC verdict on the Oct 12 change and said that it will provide the present government with an element of legitimacy. Mr Khan said the government should start the implementation of the seven-point agenda. He said it should give priority to the accountability process. It should declare casting of vote mandatory for every voter and undertake other needed electoral reforms to discourage the election of corrupt elements for parliamentary slots. He said the government should also set a limit for election expenditure.

In a Press statement issued on Friday, he said after the announcement of the SC verdict the government would no longer be able to give lame excuses to the people who were waiting for positive results. He said the government should have got a vote of public confidence directly through a referendum soon after the takeover. But now the regime should fulfil its promises without any delay and work in accordance with public expectations as it has been provided a period of three years for this purpose by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. Reference: PML accepts SC verdict: Shujaat Reporter
13 May 2000 http://www.lib.virginia.edu/area-studies/SouthAsia/SAserials/Dawn/2000/may13.html#pmla

tabreize said...

Lets see now..
1. Who was amongst the foremost countries to recognize the Taliban Govt in Afghanistan?
2. What undeniable prove was 'handed over' to the pakistani govt to change its mind and take the 'most spectacular' U-turn in recent history by declaring our good taliban friends our worst enemies? (hint: does the sentence, '..or we'll throw pakistan back into the stone age!' ring a bell?) So much for 'THIS IS THE WAR OF PAKISTANIS, AND THE TALIBAN HAVE STARTED IT' !!
3. So if taliban ARE doing all this, WHAT r we told that they want? No seriously, WHAT? Do we agree that it is to have 'less US influence in pakistan?' Agreed?? So, by the way, isnt this what we all want? what most of the countries in the world want? So why not try telling the us to do it for once!? To stop exploiting pakistan now. Like they first did against the soviets, and now against the taliban.
How much do we know about the enegy (read gas) reserves of this area, and the fact that its probably a major factor here. If one does not have a clue about what this is, one has a lot of catching up to do i am afraid!
4. Why were many of the 'fundamentalist' muslim terrorists caught by pakistani security forces found to be uncastrated? (err..u can chop my head off, but not my..' err.. no no, err.. they were non-practising, bad muslims.. err no, fundemental muslims, whatever on earth that means..err, no.. i mean whatever!)
5. The average age of a suicide bomber that attacks pakistan is 17-19 years. Who r training them? Why is it that despite having so much access recently, the govt is yet to give us the name of even ONE madressah/ONE imam (preacher) who has been found to be brain-washing kids like that? I mean you have to show 'some' evidence to support your theory in front of 160 million people!
On the other hand, a number of imams (religious head at a mosque) across pakistan have been discovered to be Indian spies (RAW agents, mostly) planted in pakistan. Many of them have been here for decades, and its anybody's guess what they have been doing at the mosques during their stay. (Their teachings to the poor/uneducated have been a major source of sectarian intolerance/hatred, as well as the suicide attacks across the country.
6. Why does the US not want Pakistan to construct a fence at its afghan border (in the same way that india has made in kashmir)?
7. Whats the exact mission statement of the recently arrived us personnel in islamabad?
8. Ok so what kind of love, harmony and affiliation with the us am i expected to show when a drone attack kills and/or injures some of my family members, friends etc (alongwith the taliban they were targetting), and the attackers term it as 'collateral damage' (that is, if at all they even feel like talking about it), Hiliary clinton said she did not!
9. Why does a country that politely refused to accept international aid after the devastating hurricane katrina, pose to be unable to understand why anything like the Kerry Lugar Bill is not acceptable to the people of pakistan?
10. I wonder why some ppl r already comparing pakistan with iraq? Anyqay, so is iraq better now (after the us intervention) than what is was when Saddam was ruling it (tough one, but any amount of brain should be sufficient to know the answer!)
Just plz leave pakistan alone. take ur war somewhere else. And also take ur anti-soviet turned anti-us taliban with u plz. We dont need ur aid, we dont need u, and we surely dont need ur advice about anything.

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