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Tuesday, 24 March 2009

Imran Khan is a Liberal just like Quaid-e-Azam M.A.Jinnah !! : An Interesting Debate on PTI's Blog




Below is an interesting debate copied from PTI's blog. The purpose of posting this debate is to expose real character of PTI which is infested with ex-JI workers and leaders.
What we can see below is that supporters of Imran Khan poorly failed to defend their leader through rational argumentation and instead they resort to Ad Hominem frequently which is hallmark of all right-wing politicians and their supporters ! (Socrates)

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Saturday, March 14, 2009
In defense of Imran Khan: Who is a Liberal?
By khawar Hassan 539 Views 19 Comments


“If you wish to converse with me”, Voltaire said, “Define your terms”. Pakistan is a funny country where we excel at changing the meaning of the words to use them for our own benefit. Business is now the equivalent of fraud and scams. Intelligence is the ability to lie and cheat. Integrity and honesty are equivalent to naivety and foolishness. Politics is just another name for raw, crude and naked opportunism.

As a result we have politicians claiming religion and espousing policies totally anathema to it and liberals who don’t know what liberalism means. First of all it is a matter of context, the term liberal in a university setting could mean different than when used in a talk show or political rally.

Mr. Najam Sethi has taken a swipe at Imran Khan for lambasting the “liberals” in his speech at the Rawalpindi Bar on March 7th. Mr. Sethi forgot to mention that Imran Khan also lambasted Maulana Fazal ur Rehman by name, and other politicians who pedal religion in general. Leaving that aside for a moment, lets delve into who is a liberal and what it means to be a liberal.

A liberal, according to Alan Wolfe, is some one who stands for personal freedom, rule of law, free but responsible markets, mutual toleration and equal concern for all. Even the most disgruntled critics of Imran Khan have to agree that he and his party, PTI, are most law abiding, peaceful and not having any goon squads. He has shown equal concern for all, including the missing persons, abused women and minorities.

Please some one explain how can any one call themselves liberal when they are rooting for killing “terrorists of Lal Masjid” without affording them due process of law? How can one call themselves liberal and support indiscriminate aerial bombing against one’s own countrymen? No matter what their crimes, they all deserve their day at the court to defend themselves. A state cannot react to vigilante squads by engaging in vigilante behavior itself. Rule of law must be upheld, and that is what Imran Khan has supported.

Please some one further explain that how can anyone call themselves liberal while supporting the most rightwing conservative policies of the Bush neocons? The same policies and wars that were opposed by true liberals in all Western countries. What would you call George Calloway, Imran Khans’ biggest supporter in UK? Or Barak Obama?

Mr. Sethi, I think a rethink is on. Please do not equate supporting US policies with liberalism. Just like Islam is being misused by the Al-Qaida and their ilk for their purposes, Liberalism is being misused by the Maghrebzadehs.

I can understand your and other journalist’s confusion regarding Imran Khan. He cannot be labeled and pigeon holed because he is his own man. He ponders over an issue and takes a stand based on what he thinks is right. It might be right of center some time and left of center at other times. It might be politically incorrect at the time as well.

The reason that Imran Khan is still popular with the liberals is because they recognize that he is a true liberal at heart. Like Mohammad Ali Jinnah, whose politics was principle based and issue oriented. Like Allama Iqbal, whose interpretation of Islam earned him fatwa of kufr. That is why he is popular with liberals like me because his politics is based on right and wrong, not right and left.


By: Khawar Shamsul Hassan

Orlando, Florida, USA

PTI Coordinator.

Rating
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Comments
By Irfan Shah @ Sunday, March 15, 2009 1:12 AM (irfanshah)
Great insight Khawar Sahib.
Thankyou very much for writing something which was really needed.
I do think that there may not be as many liberals believing in Imran Khan as we like to assume there are. But I am sure with articles such as this one, it would remove some of the misconceptions about Imran Khan.
I would suggest you to get the article in major newspapers as well.

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By Irfan Shah @ Sunday, March 15, 2009 3:13 AM (irfanshah)
Btw, I have published your piece on my blog.
Link: http://cli.gs/HJrRmP

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By safdar @ Monday, March 16, 2009 11:07 AM (sescohk)
http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/30803

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By Sikandar Bilal Khattak @ Tuesday, March 17, 2009 1:10 AM (Sikandar Bilal Khattak)
such replied to be posted on real platform. here mostly Insafian comes some other forums . :O

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By Mullah Omar @ Wednesday, March 18, 2009 2:35 PM (Mullah Omar)

"he is a true liberal at heart. Like Mohammad Ali Jinnah, whose politics was principle based and issue oriented." ---- this really strange becoz Mr. Imran Khan wants to impose shariah laws once he is in power, whereas Mr. Jinnah was a secular person and for him Pakistan was not going to be a theocratic state where mullahs rule, but for Jinnah Pakistan was supposed to be secular state where everyone would be equal citizen irrespective of his/her caste or creed !!

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By Mullah Omar @ Wednesday, March 18, 2009 3:07 PM (Mullah Omar)

"Mr. Sethi forgot to mention that Imran Khan also lambasted Maulana Fazal ur Rehman by name, and other politicians who pedal religion in general."

Why Imran Khan voted for Mullah Fazal ur Rehman ????

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By Paki @ Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:06 AM (Pakiza)

Mr Mullah Omer
one thing I can say is you need to know the fact.Imran voted for Amin Fahim when he was competing Fazal and Shaukat Aziz.
You seem to be either a lier or uneducated.

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By Paki @ Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:09 AM (Pakiza)

I have got a question for Mr Omer.
Quaid was laeding the party "Muslim League" but he did form his own party which would have been called "secular league" or why did not he change the name of the party?
Why Quaid said that Pakistan doesn't need any constitution as Quran is the constitution of Pakistan?
Mr Omer you have got your own opinion but what if you are uneducated?

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By Mullah Omar @ Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:32 PM (Mullah Omar)

Imran Khan voted for Fazal Rehman

"Once in office, Khan voted in favor of the pro-Taliban Islamist candidate for prime minister in 2002, bypassing Musharraf's choice."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imran_Khan


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/658vhcpk.asp?pg=1

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By Mullah Omar @ Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:34 PM (Mullah Omar)

Mr. Jinnah was secular and he wanted a secular muslim state.
His model was modern Turki of Kamal Ata Turk !
Mr. Jinnah was not a mullah and he even got married with a parsi lady. For him religion was no the business of state it was rather eferyone' personal matter.

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By Moiz Masood @ Friday, March 20, 2009 2:06 AM (distinctmoiz)

All of you MUST check this...
http://cyclewalabanda.blogspot.com/2007/09/pakistan-ka-matlab-kya-pakistan-jinnah.html

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By Mullah Omar @ Friday, March 20, 2009 12:32 PM (Mullah Omar)

@ Khawar

You wrote "The reason that Imran Khan is still popular with the liberals is because they recognize that he is a true liberal at heart. Like Mohammad Ali Jinnah, whose politics was principle based and issue oriented."

Imran Khan is Liberal !!!
You people first need to know what actually Liberalism means.
According to Wikipedia

"Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that considers individual liberty and equality to be the most important political goals."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Imran Khan wants imposition of Sharia in Pakistan.

http://letusbuildpakistan.blogspot.com/2009/01/imran-khan-demands-imposition-of.html

So you people see Imran Khan is not a liberal person at all as IK likes to impose Shariah and hence non-muslim citizens of pakistan which are around 6 million will become second class citizens.

Moreover, Imran Khan also supports Talibans who are against individual liberty and equality.
And still you guys think that IK is liberal !!!

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By Mullah Omar @ Friday, March 20, 2009 12:52 PM (Mullah Omar)

@Tahir Naqash

--"I have got a question for Mr Omer.
Quaid was laeding the party "Muslim League" but he did form his own party which would have been called "secular league" or why did not he change the name of the party?"

First you need to know the meaning of secularism in order to understand that Mr. Jinnah firmly believed in secularism and he actually wanted Pakistan to be a secular state.
According to Wikipedia
"Secularism is the assertion that governmental practices or institutions should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs."
Therefore, a person can be a secular muslim just like Mr. Jinnah who believed that all the citizens of Pakistan will be equal citizens i.e. even non-muslim can become President or PM of Pakistan just like India where muslims have become presidents and present PM is a sikh !
----"Why Quaid said that Pakistan doesn't need any constitution as Quran is the constitution of Pakistan? " ---- give me the source when and where Mr. Jinnah said this.
----"Mr Omer you have got your own opinion but what if you are uneducated?' ------ LOL :) yes i'm uneducated and only members of PTI are educated !!

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By Paki @ Sunday, March 22, 2009 3:59 PM (Pakiza)

@Mulla Umer

Someone once asked Quaid e Azam what he thinks of the constitution of Pakistan.To which,Quaid said pakistan has got constitution in the form of Quran.That't why he never came up with any constitution and did not ask Liaqat Ali Khan and other leaders to come with man made constituion.
My question to you should be,why Quaid did not come up with any constitution?
Well,both Imran and PTI don't support Taliban at all.What we say is ,we are against war against terror as it has been drifting Pakistan and Afghanistan to civil war.Hence we are against the strategy being adopted to curb terrorism and secondly War against Terror is being fought on Americn terms.
Now my question to you should be,
when did Imran say that we support Taliban?hs Imran ever supported Taliban finacialy?To get the answer to this question,you had better watch 'JawabDeh' which was shown on Geo Tv in the last weak of Feb 2008.
Imran clearly says that Taliban did not server Islam and that clealy shows that we are against the kind of Islam adopted by taliban.
In fact the problem with you is,you are rather driven by anti Imran camp which is trying to portray him as Pro-Taliban which is based on lies and ignorance.

Sharia means Islam is the law of the land.Noone can deny the fact that man made laws are inadequate and don't fulfill the purpose.Islam promotes equality and justice.I just would narrate an incident which happened in Holy prophet life.
"Once Holy Prphet was sitting with one of his fellows and suddenly some jews were going to their graveyard for the funeral of a jew.When Holy prophet saw them he stood up in respect and his fellow asked him why you stood up for the funeral of a jew.Holy prophet replied that Islam teaches us to respect eveyone.
You defined Liberalism correctly but you failed to come up with any conviction that what makes PTI and Imran against liberalism.freedom of any person is one thing but law has to be supreme.If by Liberalism you mean that any one can commit sins and there should be no law for him then you had better first educate yourself.
We support personal liberty to the extent unless it affects someone else.Personal Liberty means for example you can get education of your choice and we support that.But we don't support: corruption one commits with his choice,drinking publicly and teasing women publicly etc.
This all needs to be defined and as I said Law has to be supreme.


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By Mullah Omar @ Tuesday, March 24, 2009 3:12 AM (Mullah Omar)

@Tahir Naqash aka Paki

You said "Someone once asked Quaid e Azam what he thinks of the constitution of Pakistan.To which,Quaid said pakistan has got constitution in the form of Quran." Could you please advise me source. And by the way who was "somone" and why there is "once" instead of exact date !
"My question to you should be,why Quaid did not come up with any constitution?" Why you people try to pose yourself as expert ? and in reality you know nothing about constitutional history of Pakistan. Mr. Jinnah was elected first president of Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on 11th August 1947. If Mr. Jinnah thought Pakistan has got Quran as a constitution then why did he formed Constituent Assembly whose primary responsibility was to form a constitution of Pakistan. He also delivered his famous speach on that day, wherein he clearly said that "You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the State."
and he also said " We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. "
He further said " Now, I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State."

http://pakistanspace.tripod.com/archives/47jin11.htm

You further said “Well,both Imran and PTI don't support Taliban at all.What we say is ,we are against war against terror as it has been drifting Pakistan and Afghanistan to civil war.Hence we are against the strategy being adopted to curb terrorism and secondly War against Terror is being fought on Americn terms.” Hmmm Imran Khan actually impilicitly supports Talibans by terming their brutal actions against innocent Pakistanis as a reaction of American-led war on terror. Could you please tell me why your leader doesn’t condemn Talibans’ actions unconditionally ? Why IK justify Talibans’ heinous crimes ?
What are American terms ? What are Pakistani terms ?

You also asked “Now my question to you should be,when did Imran say that we support Taliban?hs Imran ever supported Taliban finacialy?” Support to Talibans can be of two types explicit or implicit. Sometimes I’ve heard Imran as saying that Talibans brought peace to Afghanistan, by this way he explicitly supports former Taliban regime in Afghanistan, which was very repressive, undemocratic, and during which thousands of people belonging to Hazara tribes massacred, women were treated very harshly and were even not allowed education. And still IK praises Talibans ! Sometimes IK supports Talibans by justifying their heinous crimes. Now you answer my following questions

1- When did PTI organized a rally led by IK to condemn Talibans crime against humanity in Pakistan ? Please tell me place and date.
2- When did IK arrange a press conference, whose sole purpose was to condemn Talibans? Date and place please.
3- When did IK visit Fata and Swat to show solidarity with victims of Talibans there? Tell me date please.

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By Mullah Omar @ Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:32 PM (Mullah Omar)

@Tahir Naqash aka Paki + all members of IK internet fan club

Come on guys, you need to defend IK !!

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By Ahsan Mansoor @ Tuesday, March 24, 2009 11:21 PM (ahsan)

Mullah Omar,

what exactly is your problem with Shariat? Yes we want to bring Shariat in this country which means a society based on justice, judicial, social and economic justice. Our whole manifesto is based on shariat. This is not a secular party so if you had problem with basic ideology of PTI, you shouldn't be here at the first place.

Answering your questions,

1- When did PTI organized a rally led by IK to condemn Talibans crime against humanity in Pakistan ? Please tell me place and date.
2- When did IK arrange a press conference, whose sole purpose was to condemn Talibans? Date and place please.
3- When did IK visit Fata and Swat to show solidarity with victims of Talibans there? Tell me date please.

Why would we protest against them? They are mere reactionaries to the government policies. IK has condemned them at a number of places (I can provide reference to video interviews), but why solely target them? They never were there before 2004 when government sent its forces to bomb its own people in return of getting salary from their masters in Washington. They are like mushrooms popping up on waste produced by the government. Clear the waste, reactionaries will die down themselves.

----

P.S. You are also warned for trolling on this website with a fake ID. Either you update your profile to start looking like a real member, or you should unregister yourself. From your posts, it is quite obvious that you aren't really a member of PTI who believes in its ideology. FYI, this website is for members of PTI only who have signed the affidavit:

"I agree to join Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf having full confidence in its manifesto, and as a member of the party I will abide by its rules and constitution. I will support Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf by voting for its candidate or helping the party in other ways."

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By Mullah Omar @ Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:31 AM (Mullah Omar)

@ Ahsan Mansoor

You asked me---- "what exactly is your problem with Shariat?" ---- well, I am not a mullah and I don't want Shariah laws in Pakistan, whose founder was a secular person. Mr. M.A.Jinnah was himself Shia but he considered religion as one's personal matter and he never behaved like a religious bigot. As a follower of Quaid-i-Azam I also believe in secularism and I have a right to defend my leader. I can't tolerate if someone tries to malign my leader.

You also said--- "Our whole manifesto is based on shariat. This is not a secular party so if you had problem with basic ideology of PTI, you shouldn't be here at the first place." ---- hmmm now cat has come out of bag ! It's pity that IK has been reduced to a mullah's level ! Now whose Shariat you are talking about ? Hanafi, Malaki, Shafai'i, Hanbali, Brelvi, Deobandi, Wahabil, Salafi, Ahl-e-Hadith, Ahmadi, Ismaili, Bohri, Shia, Talibani, etc etc ad infinitum !
And BTW instead of imposing your ideology on others why can't you defend your leader and party rationally ? Don't you think it would be better for you to defeat me logically and prove that PTI has got persons like you on whom Pakistani nation can rely and depend for their betterment ?

You further said ---- "Why would we protest against them (Talibans)? They are mere reactionaries to the government policies."---- very well said indeed!
Dear two wrongs can't make a right ! First of all Talibans are not mere reactionaries they've got their own agenda. According to that agenda they want to impose their brand of Shariah on others by force. Talibans have so for killed thousands of innocent people through suicide bombings, target killings and beheading and still you are terming them as "mere reactionaries" !! Talibans have destroyed more than two hundred schools in Swat and Fata and still people like you term them as "mere reactionaries" !!
Talibans are enemies of culture and have destroyed hundreds of music and barbar shops and still you term them as "mere reactionaries" !!
Talibans have accepted responsibilties on attacks on hosipatal in Dera Ismail Khan and attack on POF in Wah and still you term them "mere reactionaries" !! Talibans have recently destroyed tomb of famous poet Rehman Baba and still you term them as "mere reactionaries" !!

You move on to say that-----"They never were there before 2004 when government sent its forces to bomb its own people in return of getting salary from their masters in Washington. They are like mushrooms popping up on waste produced by the government. Clear the waste, reactionaries will die down themselves." ----- First of all Talibans were there before 2004 in their safe havens from where they used to mount attacks on ISAF troops stationed in Afghanistan. Moreover, Pakistani state had to start operation in FATA in 2003 as Talibans have challenged writ of the state there. BTW there wasn't any operation in Swat why Talibans played havoc there ?? Talibans have killed hundreds of Brelvis in Khyber Agency and hundreds of Shias have been killed in Kurram Agency by the Talibans. Talibans even killed dozens of millitants belonging to Ahl-e-Hadith sect in Mohmand Agency. Do you have any idea why are they killing people of other sects? The answer is very simple Talibans believe in a hate ideology and according to them everyone is heretic who doesn't believe in their brand of Shariah and he/she should be beheaded ! Now what we are witnessing in Swat should be eye-opener for you people. Talibans have banned judges to attend their courts and in spite of peace agreement they are still busy in kidnapping government officials and killing security personnels ! Talibans don't understand language of peace they only believe in use of force as we are witnessing in Swat !

As you were unable to defend your leader and answer my three following questions

1- When did PTI organized a rally led by IK to condemn Talibans crime against humanity in Pakistan ? Please tell me place and date.
2- When did IK arrange a press conference, whose sole purpose was to condemn Talibans? Date and place please.
3- When did IK visit Fata and Swat to show solidarity with victims of Talibans there? Tell me date please.

what you wrote is very interesting indeed and should be an eye-opener for any person who believes in rational dialogue ---- " P.S. You are also warned for trolling on this website with a fake ID. Either you update your profile to start looking like a real member, or you should unregister yourself. From your posts, it is quite obvious that you aren't really a member of PTI who believes in its ideology. FYI, this website is for members of PTI "----

Thanks anyway for your comments !

Bye and peace for all !

© 2008 by Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf

Source: http://insaf.pk/Media/InsafBlog/tabid/168/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1981/In-defense-of-Imran-Khan-Who-is-a-Liberal.aspx

....

Kashif said:

I voted for IK when he contested first time. Well I didn’t vote for him personally but I voted for PTI candidate. On social issues I am still onboard with him like you. I don’t have words to appreciate his efforts on Shauket Khanum. But on political front I am very disappointed. My biggest disappointment is his extreme right views. I am center left and center right like NS is still OK but extreme right especially when Pakistan is going through this phase is unimaginable. I do remember Hamid Gul’s comments those were his good days. Instead of confronting right Imran drifted towards right.

I said in one of the earlier posts that after BB and the way ardari is going politically Imran’s best bet is to target left. Right is still very satisfied with NS. But looking at Imran’s history he never confronted populist wave. He opposed BB & NS when they were in gov and unpopular. He was with Mushraaf until he was popular. I won’t be surprised if he starts opposing Taliban and Alqaeda once public starts hating them. He is very suttle on NS as he knows NS is very popular these days. I still remember his statements where he repeatedly termed him ‘loha chor’. I am sure he will start his and SS’s opposition once he sees his graph going south. In cricket field IK was a leader who lead from front but in politics he follows a populist wave. Nevertheless I will start supporting him once he comes on right side of the fence, in my view. As you know we don’t have much choice. In politics we don’t choose best person we go for lesser evil. If he detaches himself from right and grow some roots in masses (at this point he can’t win from Lahore or Islamabad w/o NS’s suport) he ‘d certainly be a lesser evil comapre to NS/SS.


2 comments:

THE PATHANS said...

IMRAN KHAN-FAILED POLITICIAN
I really don’t want to waste my time on writing about Imran Khan ,but anytime I read his statements he sounds so confuse, first this guy does not have any political wisdom of a politician, he does not have any agenda, he used to criticize Nawaz Luhar but now he is following him, his mentality is like QAZI HUSSAIN and I believe Qazi is his mentor in politics, they both love politics of agitation. He says one thing and does something else, he is a guy who could not keep his marriage but he claims to be a leader and wants to run the country. All of sudden he does not like liberals in Pakistan because liberals are against what Taliban are doing in Pakistan, he forgets that he was married to a western woman and another woman in west claims to be his kid’s mother, anyhow that’s his personal life and I have no right to talk about it but Imran is upset because liberals in Pakistan are criticizing Taliban, so my question to him is that is it ok to blow girls schools, hang dead bodies to poles and trees, is suicide bombing ok? I think he is confuse and thinks like liberals are against religion, but that is not the issue and that is not even Islam of our Holy Prophet Mohammad(PBUH),What Taliban are doing is ignorance but not Islamic. I never been cricket fan but when Imran Khan came into politics, I thought it was the last chance of hope, however after more than 12 years, IK has still not proved his leadership potential and the nation who is waiting for a leader is still in wait. H e does not have any political bone in his body and does not have any political principles, its amazing he called Nawaz Sharif a thief in the beginning of his political career and later moved towards nawaz, on one side he and his X wife wrote hardliner Islamic columns in Pakistani newspapers but at the same time were busy spending the most liberal life in a conservative country like Pakistan , even after 12 years in politics, he is a 1 man show in his own party, he tries to ally with the moderates through his personality and then sits with the hardliner conservatives like Qazi Hussain he bravely talks about Baluchistan and FATA and NWFP but has also failed to visit these areas to prove his actions more than words . If he has an original conviction to change Pakistani society, he should come out of this quagmire of old used up politicians like Qazi Hussian Nawaz etc, That will be surely the onset of his political success. His PTI lacks of internal party democracy and the fact that if something were to happen to IK, the party would completely disintegrate. I do not view the PTI of IMRAN KHAN as a vehicle for change. looking attractive is not required in politics. Politics requires total devotion, honesty, total freedom from racial and ethnic bias and a total commitment to improve the lot of a country's oppressed people .He's failed because he started off as a leader of change but instead came out another dual-faced politician. He has a strange state of mind, he entered in politics with the slogan that he is against corrupt politicians but then chose to get into alliance with the same politicians, as well as the decades old power brokers of the conservative parties. I think Imran needs to quit politics and should coach young cricketers because after 10 years he is riding on other politicians shoulders and does not have any political agenda.

Anonymous said...

Poor IK fans are unable to handle a single person !

Watch out

http://insaf.pk/Media/InsafBlog/tabid/168/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1981/In-defense-of-Imran-Khan-Who-is-a-Liberal.aspx

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