Was the Mumbai attack the Kargil 2? Does the ISI want to topple the the democratic government of President Zardari? How can the UN help Pakistan?

Was the Mumbai attack the Kargil 2? Does ISI want to topple the democratic government of President Zardari in Pakistan? How can the UN help Pakistan?

An interesting conversation between some educated Pakistanis


pejamistri Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 6:30 pm

It seems to me that ISI has asked all the “beardo brigade” members to focus on …..
There are several reasons for this. Initially it started with the bashing of political parties after the removal of the mad dictator, however after the Mumbai attacks, ISI decided exploit the misplaced/misguided patriotism of “educated” youth of Pakistan hence they went for an all out propaganda.


Pejamistri says:

December 24th, 2008 at 11:36 am

Earlier I mentioned that for the people of India and United States, the best thing is to support people of Pakistan. However true to their past governments of both countries (specially Indians are not interested in it) of course they believe that they can survive several more 9/11s, Mumbai attacks.
While the military of Pakistan is generating a war hysteria in Pakistan in an attempt to ride on the sentiments of false patriotism and win the “hearts” of people of Pakistan. However Indians are hitting the people of Pakistan where it hits the most i.e. Financially and Diplomatically.

Today Indians are trying to prevail over Sri Lankan government to cancel the upcoming Cricket tour of Pakistan. BTW Sri Lankan Army and Pakistan Military have been “comrades in arms” for a very long time , in fact mad dictator was in Sri Lankan Military headquarters when Nawaz Sharif sacked him , and their are news that Sri Lankan army helped him with intelligence during his visit their against the wishes of government of Pakistan.

Moreover India is going to make a case of economic sanctions against Pakistan early next year which may then cause stoppage of IMF’s installment next year.
Is it a coincidence that just after 1988 , Americans approved/invoked Pressler amendment and United Nations were worried about the Nuclear arms in the decade of 90’s , and now just after the mad dictator has gone and Pakistan is under civilian rule we find the US and Indians again trying to put Pakistan in economic jail.
That is why I ask my friends in US, why were they surprised about 9/11 when their own government asked for it , and how could they be surprised about “Manhattan dirty bombing” when their government is again asking for it. For eight years US, Indians, and some Europeans were supporting the mad dictator’s regime with 70 billion dollars , despite 7/7 (British 9/11 as they call it) they kept giving money to directly to Pakistan army and indirectly to extremists.

And now when there is a civilian government in Pakistan , they are making hue and cry about the 9/11 of a country which is just trying to be part of “civilized nations”, whose in civilized record is suspicious.
Remember Pakistan army wants war euphoria , they want to use Mumbai attacks to gain public sympathy and improve their reputation. They may even think of small Kargil like battle which could as usual be disaster, on the other hand Indians it seems are not interested in war instead they want economic sanctions against Pakistan. Whereas Americans are busy in transition.


pejamistri Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

@GoTK
Just like you I am also waiting for Zardari to do one single thing right. It’s been a year and he could not get UN team for BB’s murder investigation.
There is a difference however between my disappointment and yours and that is if Zardari fails , I trust NS , if he fails I trust IK and if he fails too then I trus Zardari (if he is still there in Pakistan ) , and if he is not there I start trusting NS again , and if in the meanwhile GoTK becomes a popular politician I will start trusting him…. all the while democratic system is there , politician are fighting , defeating each other and I am voting….


Ghost Of TK says:
December 24th, 2008 at 4:08 pm

@peja: They may even think of small Kargil like battle which could as usual be disaster,

Out of the various possiblities, do you think Mumbai may have been Kargil_2 which the world has averted? ie; India attack pakistan, military gets to not fight its choochaa’s ??

I still am not sure. Though I am flip-flopping between fals-flag conspiracy theories (india/mossad did it using beardos) and Kargil-II (arms length ISI assets did it using .. you guessed it.. the beardo’s)

The reason I’m leaning towards a “plausibly deniable” inovlvement of the ISI networks is because Hamid Gul was really a cheery little fvcker right after the attacks and he came on one show and claimed he was lifting weights alredy to get ready for war and that 25 lakh retired fauji’s were ready to fight (the 2.5 million Bat-men … can you imagine the wings flapping?)

He has also been making statements last year that 2009 will be the “year of the revolution”. I’m sure JI and other PiThoo’s will like nothing better than “another revolution in the interest of the nation”

The level of activity in favor of “mard-e mujahid Hamid Gul” after such moronic interview was very interesting. On most news forums new ID’s started appearing with statements like “Hamid Gul is right! He is true mujahid…” etc. again.. a feeble attempt on the part of the agencies to give credence to his batshit crazy ideas …
so… was it a false flag by mossad?

or a self-directed false flag by Gul and company with the beardo’s given the kind of training that they would leave a trail of evidence that would lead to pakistan, cause a conflagaration, army moves out of swat/FATA to eastern border, emergency is declared and Kayani eventually takes over.

Also interesting was the near instantaneous re-aligning of the “Taliban” + Army opinion once India seemed ready to strike. “Mehsud is a patriot” … The same Mehsud that their frothy-mouthed stooge, Zaid Hamid declared to be a “RAW asset” a day before the “patriot” statement by ISPR.

????

We’re not out of the woods yet, because now the indians are complaining that Pakistan is creating ‘war hysteria’ … so that kind of gives credence to your ‘army wants war’ theory.


Pejamistri says:
December 24th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

@GoTK
I was away… but let me comments on your posts in chronological order… so first..
dude I got news. Zardari killed Benazir. Everything points to it. This is why he’s not moving on it……

Please excuse my famous “Know-All” expression , but that’s where I can not help using this.

You see I am all confusion and you are all “Sure” , I am all questions and you are all answers , I am the small x in indeterminate equation and you are the “(planck’s) constant” in equation. So you know Zardari killed BB , I want UN investigation team to find out who killed BB :)…

For the “Hosni Mubarik” thingy , I am amused there were two times when I got afraid of “Hosni Mubarik” phenomenon in Pakistan , once the “GREAT” ameer-ul-moomneen Hazrat General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq Rahmat-ullah Alaiha , ghazi-e-millat , faatih-e-Kabul were ruling , there is no doubt democratic forces trying their best to topple ameer-ul-moomneen, Junejo, young BB, mature Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan all were doing great, but you know “ameer-ul-moomneen” was not perturbed by them , he had a large following in the urban areas and he was pretty much settled to rule like Hosni Mubarik.

Second time it was briefly in the early 1997 , when Nawaz Sharif riding the huge popularity in both urban and rural part of Punjab, NWFP got the two-third majority. I was little bit worried as he was young , had right-wing ideas and was more acceptable in the military , therefore I thought may military has found their leader after death of “ameer-ul-moomneen”. But you know what , that was the time when my faith in politicians of Pakistan got a mega-boost as the presumed “ameer-ul-moomneen” turned out to be a politician and he got away with 8th amendment instead of implementing the shariah bill , he offered olive branch to India , instead of buying missiles for USA , and decided to sit on foot -toilet seat instead of sitting in P.M house chair at the mercy of fvcking generals…
So I can’t help smiling that you would think “Asif Zardari” can become Hosni Mubarik , if he does then well it will prove two things one you are really “Know-All” , second I am nuts … which means I need to do a “Beea’t” at your hands my guru… hahahah


Pejamistri Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

@GoTK
Ref:24 December 2008 16:08
I am not actually interested in who did Mumbai attacks , to me it has no meanings/consequences who did or didn’t do it. I remember on BBC someone wrote an article calling Mumbai attacks a new phenomenon in terrorism which he called perhaps “show biz terrorism” where few disgruntled youth with few thousand dollars take up arms, knowing very well that there “show” will be telecasted live on all the sattelite channels :)…. So you see what I mean… it is not important at all who did it…

Important thing is who does what after Mumbai attacks. And that’s where I see Pak Army using it to generate the war hysteria and gaining public sympathies and maligning the politicians (see it is not only AZ but NS as well) …
And I see India using it to get economic sanctions on Pakistan.


Pejamistri says:
December 24th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

Coming to the Kargil-II possibility, it seems to me that it may quite be possible and I am really worried about this scenario. The Kargil-II has not happened yet , but it is quite possible that the army generals decide to embark on another misadventure , remember “Operation Gibralter” ,people usually think that it happened one night , in reality there were strained relations and blame game between Pakistan and India for quite sometime. There used to be “air space violations” , “firing along the LoC and borders” etc.. for quite a few months.
Looking at the chances of a Kargil-II, I would think they are merely 40% or below. As I said although army is ready to accept and acceptable level of survival , but they don’t want to commit suicide. It is true that they would like to have their image restored in the eyes of “urban educated” public , by creating war hysteria in major cities. At the same time they also want to mend their differences (or should I say hostility) with the Mullahs , they would like to get out of Mullah’s fire line, but they can not afford to have an all-out war with India , a small Kargil could have all the probability to lead to an all-out war…

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Ghost Of TK Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 7:30 pm

@peja: re: seriously funny, fair enough, but then again, explain the GoP asking PRC to NOT BLOCK the resolution against JuD.

If there is a Mullah-Military nexus, this will weaken Mullah’s …

If kiyani is in control, then how did zardari dare to do it?

If there is a MM nexus, and Zardari did it anyways, then is not using the situation against the jurnails? Same thing that they were trying to use against him (ie; Kargil-II which I think mumbai was) courtesy of Mr. Qasab et. al.

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Pejamistri Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 7:43 pm

@GoTK
At the risk of annoying “Beardos” , let me put argument in another way…
If kiyani is in control, then how did zardari dare to do it?

If there is a MM nexus, and Zardari did it anyways, then is not using the situation against the jurnails?

You see you are the Muslim/Christian ,”a monotheist” , you believe that only one god rules Pakistan , it is either Kiyani or Zardari , or it may be a trinity Zardari-Kiyani-XYZ etc… I am the “hindu” , a polytheist whose “gods” are always fighting with each other , when the god of Sun wants the the Sun to shine , the god of clouds wants the clouds to rain … you see what I mean….

I have no idea why GoP will ask PRC not to block the resolution against JuD, I even have no idea whether it actually happened, I even have no idea if China is gay (loves Pakistan too much that it would STOP resolution against JuD on Pakistan’s instructions ) or straight (likes to play safe :)… I hope you understand what I mean).

So in a nutshell what China did was what he should have done … there is no question that any country will stop resolution against JuD after the Mumbai attacks.

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pejamistri Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

Hasan Mujtaba on Kargil-II & Maulana Hippi..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/miscellaneous/story/2008/12/081223_hasan_column_sen.shtml …

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Pejamistri says:
December 25th, 2008 at 1:08 pm

It may not be surprising for me if I had read some research in collective human psychology (if there was any research) , however it is amazing that how the sense of “false patriotism” as I call it, blinds the people with facts and realities.
For example how easy it is to believe that the Pakistan army is so bestial , barbaric and cold blooded murderers that these soldiers won’t have qualms of conscious while burning alive the innocent little girls with chemical weapons , but how difficult it is to believe for the same people that the same army can kill the hindus (in Mumbai massacre).

These people have no problems in believing that this army is killing their own people , abducting their own people , selling their own people , but at the same time the same army is ready to die for the sake of same people.
In existentialism their is a term known as “Karamazov Nature” which means that a person can contemplate two extremes at once, let me quote here
Karamazov is just such a two-sided nature, fluctuating between two extremes, that even when moved by the most violent craving for riotous gaiety, he can pull himself up, if something strikes him on the other side. And on the other side is love.
I thought Karamzov nature applies only to individual , but can it also apply to the collection of humans?, is it possible that a cold blooded army on a killing spree of the humans has so much soft and caring heart that at the same time it is ready to defend the same people.

There is no question that the war hysteria being created by the Pakistan military , by having “low flying air force jets” , issuing “on my dead body” like audacious statements, is just part of re-branding themselves. I personally think that such attempts have no consequences , the constituency that such attempts targets is the “urban educated” population , remember we have seen such thing for over 11 years when their used to be 23rd March parades , weapon exhibition and Ghazi-e-millat ameer-ul-moomneen used to tell about the blessings of jihad , however just after his death the people of Pakistan choose the “lady in the green”….

The thing I got worried over the past on week is the possibility of another misadventure , until yesterday I give 40% chances of such a probability however after talking few people in Pakistan it seems that the probability could be higher than this.

Although I don’t have complete information but it seems that India is encouraging Pakistan army to go for a small scale misadventure , the important point is that India is no mood for an all-out war (which Pakistan army believes is good for them), however in that limited battle they want to tone down their own public anger , by as usual showing to the public that they defeated Pakistan army yet again (remember Kargil, 1971 etc..)… on the other hand Pakistan army believes that using “false patriotism” in the dozens of television channels they can create the similar false picture of their virtual success (again recall Kargil and 1965) … so it may give a win-win to both India and Pakistan…

The worrying thing however is that it is hard to trust Pakistan Army specially the known “internal rifts” and the possibility of use of nukes. It is very hard to find out how the limited war can turn out specially in this new world with communication revolution….

….

Pejamistri says:
December 25th, 2008 at 5:28 pm

@sashah,

Very interesting … you mentioned you have been visiting indian blogs , recently somebody posted here a question asking for links to indian blogs, would you be able to supply the links to those blogs I would be really interested as well…
Now coming to your response…

No doubt the role of militry in pakistan’s political history has not been good(even worst)

I am smiling at even worst why not just call it “has not been good”? … can you tell me what you mean by worst.. and what is meant by “has not been good” , to be honest it is very hard to judge the “has not been good” and “worst” , for example for some overthrowing the democratic government (for some government of NS and for some government of ZAB) is “not a good act” and for some it is worst?.. similarly it is hard to qualify acts of killing at lal masjid, waziristan , balochistan etc… as “not good” or “worst” , I would really appericiate if you could enlighten me which act of army has not bee “good” and which was “worst”….

Aaah… I would love to agree with you that the Kiyani is the angel…. remember I talked about the Karmazov nature … perhaps he has one such nature ….

My friend re-read my comments… just like I did , and reading them again I realized your words are very familiar to me …. the “verbal diarrhea guy” .. guess who?????
I am away from Pakistan and It makes me sad when I see Pakistanis fighting with each other on a Blog using abusive language. LACK OF TOLERANCE in EDUCATED Pakistanis.

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kafka8 Says:
December 26th, 2008 at 10:18 am

@peja
i spoke to a few ppp insiders and they agreed that indeed zardari is trying to use america/india to cut the army down to size.
but my non-ppp friends insist that my hatred for faujistan has blinded me to the incompetence of zardaro.

what say ye…O’ faithful defender of all things democratic!!
ps: tk, shirkuh, bohkhari, nrkh…do jump in once peja replies

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Pejamistri says:
December 26th, 2008 at 11:12 am

@kafka8

I come from a “software engineering” background , there we use a term called “abstraction” , higher the level of abstraction, lower the visibility of implementation details. Most of the time I look at the politics in Pakistan from higher abstract level , where AZ, NS, IK , mad dictator, Kiyanis etc.. are less visible instead we have democratic force and establishment and the BATTLE.
Now coming back to your question, at lower abstract level , my conviction for AZ “cutting army down to size” is not based on the current , past or future actions of Zardari, they are based on simple theory of perpetual battle between establishment and the democratic forces. I explained this earlier somewhere that it is like a proverbial animosity between the cat and dog, I usually quote the example of NS in 1997 , who got the heavy public mandate and was (is?) a right wing leader , having (still?) vast sympathies in the establishment forces and having no visible differences in terms of right-wing (islamic?) policies for Pakistan…. but since he was a popular leader trusted by the people of Pakistan and came through democratic means , therefore his existence would mean extinction of the establishment (army), consequently he was overthrown…

AZ must have made several compromises with the army in order to get into the government (there may be hundreds of reasons why he made those compromises and why he did not adopt a rigid approach)…. remember BB in 1988 , when she made much worse compromises with the army in order to get the government. But these compromises do not have much impact on the battle between the two…

In fact I would like to rephrase/revert your question and you will see how much does it make sense?…. i.e.

I spoke to a few establishment insiders and they agreed that indeed establishment is trying to use america/india to cut the PPP/ANP/PMLN down to size.
So in a nutshell whether AZ is using America/India against the army or not at this moment, this battle is on , establishment (army) is on the look to find an opportune moment to send the “bloody civilians” back , and democratic force are steadily moving towards getting Pakistan out of woods…
P.S.

At this moment by the way establishment (army)’s only objective is to get their image repainted , they are using every opportunity for this purpose even at the cost of more deaths to the people of Pakistan (the war hysteria, giving room to extremist in NWFP, shaking hands with mullahs, threatening (hollow) US to bring drones down etc…)

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Pejamistri says:
December 26th, 2008 at 8:46 pm

@GoTK
Ref:December 26th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
That’s pure politics, a rebellion within the party , remember there are very mature politicians in the rebellious group. YRG , AA, Safdar Abbasi’s etc.. of this PPP are not mere pawns

NS doing “very sensible politics” , “a mature politicians”.
IK making sure he himself align with the wishes of people
And so on and so on………

So do you get what it means by democratic forces? :)….
You know what, if everything went smooth and there is a mid term elections, I , like an “eighteen stone women”, will vote for NS this time (I will not be giving vote to AA+YRG group of PPP )… then there will be another rebellion against the Sharif Brothers , the great Javaid Hashmi leading the rebellious group , then again a mid term , and now I vote for AA+YRG … an so on and so on….
Some pessimism

Only thing I would be worried is another mad dictator. Then again pejamistri, then again the CJ , then again …. … haha………

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Pejamistri says:
December 26th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

@GoTK
At the very least one should criticize those areas,
heehehe… you are borrowing pharases from beardos a lot my friend…
There are so many people criticizing him (AZ), I am not talking about the critics on ….s which are just “bu11shit” …

Do you really know why there are 4 line news everyday YRG is staying , YRG is going, why Amin Fahim gets here daughter in Ireland , why Safdar Abbasi etc.. started appearing on news channels….

BTW there is a central executive committee meeting today…

and there is another statement from Ban Ki Mon about the UN team for investigation…
On UN investigation let me tell you important thing is the mandate of the UN team , there are several groups fighting about this , of course ISI the major one. There are voices about getting the UN investigation team formulated through a UN security council resolution… you can imagine what it will mean for all the players involved in BB’s murder….

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Pejamistri says:
December 26th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

@GoTK

Just in case you get worried that somehow I am suggesting AZ may be involved in BB’s murder, you already know I don’t buy such bu!!shit…. the differences between all the people in PPP are purely political (and you know politics is based vested interest too… )

BTW you see my dilemma, in Pakistan, people are always talking in extreme , their are either satans or angels (no more humans)… of course this is because they have been dealing with satans (establishment) , therefore as their opposite they search for angels…. so it is hard for the “urban educated” people to understand what it means by being human and what it means by the “vested interest” of a human :)…

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Marcvs_Tacitvs_Cicero Says:
December 27th, 2008 at 1:49 am

I admire @Peja as much as I admire Mukhtaran Mai.
I think @Peja knows EXACTLY how this is going to turn out. He knows that this ZPP government is fantastically incompetent and outdoes the previous BB governments in its corruption. He knows there will be another Martial Law. He knows Zardari will be swinging from a lamp post.

But just like a good rape victim, he has mentally accepted this situation.
What he writes is merely his process of psychological rationalization of the coming abuse he knows PPP workers will suffer. Like some masochist, he is getting ready.

Haakim-e-shahr bhi , majma’-e-’aam bhee
teer-e-ilzaam bhi , saNg-e-dushnaam bhee
SubH-e-naashaad bhi , roz-e-naakaam bhee
in kaa dam.saaz apnay siwaa kon hay
shahr-e-jaanaaN meN ab baaSafaa kon hay
dast-e-qaatil ke shaayaaN rahaa kon hay
rakht-e-dil baaNdh lo dil figaaro chalo
Phir hameeN qatl ho aa.eN yaaro chalo

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Pejamistri says:
December 27th, 2008 at 6:27 am

@MTC
I was just going to ask you when is the next martial law, sometimes back you said it is not far off….

I think @Peja knows EXACTLY how this is going to turn out. He knows that this ZPP government is fantastically incompetent and outdoes the previous BB governments in its corruption. He knows there will be another Martial Law. He knows Zardari will be swinging from a lamp post.

EXACTLY I already know how is it doing it turn out… I predicted even before the elections happened. Remember

mausam aya tau nakhle-daar pe meer
sar-e-Mansoor ka hi baar aya

This is not because I am “MTC” or “GoTK” and I “Know-all” , this is because I have fought this battle for a long time , I know its rounds and I know what is coming next.

Yes the rape is inevitable , the rape of the nation at the hands of another mad dictator, along with its forces , but you know now it is not PPP only which is affected by this rape , it is the “Chief Justices”, “Nawaz Sharifs” and “Media” who are also unwilling victim in this rape…

However I don’t search for excuses for this “rape” , saying that “BB’s government was corrupt” , “Nawaz Sharif government was incompetent” and “AZ government is fantastically incompetent” is like saying since “the girl was too pretty, and she had lesser cloths , and the rapists was starved of s3x for many days , therefore my Lord please have mercy on the rapist!!!”

Or at the risk of annoying beardos again let me say this … “A woman with lesser cloth is more prone to rape than a woman in the viel… as there are male wolf out there on the look for them” … similarly “A corrupt government is more prone to be dismissed by the generals than a “government by angels” as military ba$tard$ are out there to rape bloody civilians“.

My friend until you understand why democracy produces people like “Bush” and “Blair” as the leaders in “civilized” society and why they are allowed to “rule” during their tenure, it will be hard for you to understand my “syndrome”, although I can perfectly understand your “genetic disorder” caused by the Ameer-ul-mooneen General Zia’s rape of this nation….

..

pejamistri Says:
December 27th, 2008 at 6:46 am

@GoTK
Thanks for the compliments…

It seems though you did not read my comments carefully , I mentioned that people look for “angels” because they are faced by “satans” and it is not the “common man” who looks for “angels” , it is the “urban educated” man…

And by AZ is still the C-in-C and is leading the troops :). There is no change….
I will come back to generalization/abstraction theory little bit later. In the meanwhile “do contribute on the death anniversary of shaheed-e-millat Mohtarama Benazir Bhutto” as who knows you may have to write something for “Shaheed-e-Jamhooriat Izzat Maaab Asif Ali Zardari”… I love when people have to write/say something against their convictions